davidc__	So, now to begin. We, the ipodlinux developers, have been working on some new features
davidc__	Features you havent seen discussed, or mentioned anywhere else, simply because we wanted a chance to finish them without being innundated by n00bs
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davidc__	We've been working on some of these features for quite a while, and I'm very sure that you'll be more excited after you leave this meeting
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davidc__	than when you joined it
*	josh_ gives voice to jonrelay
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josh_	Okay.
josh_	1) What's wrong with Podzilla right now.
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josh_	Well, let's see... it's difficult to compile, fragmented into a dozen different zillas, doesn't have a stable API, etc.
macpod	I'm kinda on-call for work, so I'll be in and out, but I have compiled my thoughts here: http://macpod.net/podzillaDesign.txt
josh_	Most of that stems from the fact that Podzilla evolved in an ad-hoc fashion, a long time ago when there were maybe 40 users on the wiki.
josh_	Now there are about 4,000, and everyone wants something different. Thus, the original ad-hoc method doesn't work quite so well now.
josh_	Since different people want a different mix of stability vs features, there are about a dozen *zillas on the wiki.
josh_	They tend to be out-of-date wrt CVS and introduce subtle bugs, etc.
josh_	Not to mention that coding for Podzilla is somewhat difficult since Nano-X is a rather low-level library;
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josh_	it's pretty hard to make complex UIs in it without reinventing several dozen wheels.
josh_	Well, we've fixed most of those things.
davidc__	Another thing of note is that every different part looks, well, different
davidc__	There is no easy way, with the current system, to ensure a consistent look and feel
josh_	With the new system, there is.
josh_	And that brings us to something that might not be a "new" announcement for some of you...
josh_	 
josh_	2) TTK.
josh_	TTK is, basically, just a GUI library for the iPod.
josh_	However, it's much higher-level than, say, Nano-X or SDL, so it tends to be easier to program things for.
josh_	Also, it handles a lot of the messy stuff itself - for instance, if you want a window,
josh_	er, menu,
josh_	you can just add it to a window with one function, set some handlers as far as what to do when items are selected, and you're done.
josh_	But all that is programming details, and probably isn't what you all are interested in.
josh_	Why is this important? Well, it lets the coders among us make things easier, prettier, and with less fuss.
josh_	It becomes easier to implement complex apps, and everyone wins.
josh_	Oh, and a few other new things TTK supports...
josh_	* Actually good themes. You could make a theme that looks exactly like the Apple firmware for Photo iPods, if you so chose. If any of you remember Decipha's "Desktop Skin" stuff, you could do that relatively easily. Without any code.
josh_	* You can do TrueType and PNG fonts (the former might be slow though :-), so you can get good-looking antialiased stuff, etc.
josh_	And a bunch of other, less important things.
davidc__	Now, you might ask
davidc__	what makes the new podzilla so much more special, besides all that listed above?
davidc__	Well, the answer is a revolutionary new graphics engine.
davidc__	Alpha Blending.
davidc__	Scaling.
davidc__	PNG support
davidc__	Animation support
davidc__	May I introduce, Hotdog.
davidc__	Hotdog is the brainchild of a new member of our development group, slowcoder
davidc__	He is an expert graphics programmer, and we were simply amazed by what we saw
davidc__	The following movie that you are about to see is a screen capture of a demo of the hotdog engine
davidc__	It currently runs animated at 20fps on the ipod, and we expect to make 25 before we're done
davidc__	May I present: HOTDOG!
davidc__	http://homepage.mac.com/slowcoder/hotdogdemo.mov
davidc__	Keep in mind, this is not going to be our final UI
josh_	Mirror: http://www.get-linux.org/~oremanj/t/hotdogdemo.mov
davidc__	it is simply a demo of the power of the new graphics engine
davidc__	Now, slowcoder has done an awesome job. We'll talk a lot more about the technical features of the engine later, after we've  got to everything we need to present today, but for those that can't wait, here's a link to a presentation on Hotdog: http://homepage.mac.com/slowcoder/Hotdog.pdf
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josh_	Now, we mentioned before that Podzilla's API was fragmented and unusable... of course, we've changed that too.
josh_	We're not going to go into too much detail now, but suffice it to say:
josh_	the basic GUI functions, settings, menus, stuff in the header, messages/dialogs, iPod stuff, the DSP, and more -
josh_	all are much easier and more coherent to use in apps.
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josh_	For instance, take menus. They were static before, pretty hard to use dynamically sometimes.
josh_	Well, now it's just one line of code and you've got your handler where you want it in the menu.
josh_	Settings... well, games can now use the same settings interface as Podzilla in their own config files, store highscores, etc.
josh_	Of course, the old API (including Nano-X) is completely supported; most games only require a #define PZ_COMPAT before including the podzilla header.
josh_	Also, event handling is much improved.
josh_	It's at a higher level, really.
josh_	In addition to the "key up" / "key down" events everyone got in Nano-X, now you get
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josh_	scrolls (of arbitrary distance, so you don't have to call the event handler a large number of times),
josh_	scrollwheel *taps* (all handled automatically, no messy IO port calls, just set up a handler for it) and properly differentiated from scrolling and button presses,
josh_	an event after a button is held down for a certain amount of time,
josh_	one-shot timers, recurring timers, a "frame" event for calling your event handler N times per second,
josh_	etc.
josh_	This all makes the barrier to entry for iPod coding a lot lower - it's easier to get started.
josh_	Also, the new API will be much better documented than the existing one.
davidc__	Oh, and one more thing.
davidc__	Right now, adding a feature to podzilla is a tedious task
davidc__	It requires either a recompile
davidc__	or at the very minimum, copying a new complete podzilla to the ipod
davidc__	this causes fragmentation into multiple builds, and no end to update troubles
davidc__	We've decided to solve this once and for all
davidc__	Introducing... ucDL, the dynamic module loader for iPodLinux!
davidc__	Now add new games to your ipod with a simple drag and drop
davidc__	And its not just games!
davidc__	its Everything.
davidc__	Applications, music codecs, all easily packagable as a single POD file, or if you so choose, compile directly into podzilla itself
davidc__	ucDL is the brilliant work of josh_, so a big hand for him.
*	aegray claps
josh_	The new .POD format is sort of like an archive... it contains the module, an info file that has information about dependencies etc., but also any data the module wants to use.
*	slowcoder joins in
josh_	The PODs are stored in a special block format that lets the kernel actually mount them
josh_	so you don't need to use weird functions to read data - you just call a function to get a pathname, and read from it like usual.
josh_	Of course, this means applications, kernel modules, whatever - can all be contained in PODs.
josh_	Since this is uClinux, module loading is somewhat hard - mainly because you can't be sure where the *original* program will be loaded.
josh_	Thus, there's an extra step after compilation - you have to run a special app (included in uCdl) to add the symbols to the app.
josh_	When podzilla loads, it reads all the symbols in; when it loads modules, uCdl acts like the linker, patching up undefined references and performing relocations so everything (hopefully) works right.
josh_	Modules can also depend on each other, and all such dependencies will be resolved at runtime - thus, for instance, a game could call out to the music module to decode some MP3s.
josh_	You can also have multiple modules that do the same thing - this is accomplished with a thing called "Provides", and all modules that specify that they "provide" the same thing get put in a submenu for the user to pick only one.
josh_	For instance, there's no need to have a zillion text input methods loaded at once. Just pick the one you actually *use*.
davidc__	and along those lines
davidc__	Any app which requests text input should be able to use any of the text input methods
josh_	Modules are also very easy to make - you don't even need to put them in the podzilla tree. You just make a two-line Makefile, a Module file with a really simple key: value format for specifying module name, author, etc.
josh_	and then you make -C /path/to/podzilla SUBDIRS=`pwd` and it compiles it for you
josh_	and that's about all on the subject of modules
josh_	okay, questions from contributors.
*	josh_ sets mode +z #ipodlinux.mtg
EvilDude	yay
EvilDude	First, how does this affect the desktop compilations?
davidc__	Everything should work the same
davidc__	well, its different
EvilDude	Eg how can we test podzilla with the .pod's, will hotdog work on desktop etc
davidc__	but it should work the same on the ipod and on the host machine
davidc__	Pods are emulated on the host machine using dlopen
josh_	well, for desktop Podzilla all the pods are stored extracted in an xpods/ folder
EvilDude	ah that's pretty cool
davidc__	hotdog works fine on the desktop
josh_	e.g. instead of having pods/mymodule.pod, you have xpods/mymodule/<contents of the pod>
josh_	all that is transparent
EvilDude	little curiousity q - how long has this been in the works!
josh_	the main reason is so you don't have to insmod the podfs module and run podzilla as root and increase your number of loop devices etc. etc. etc.
josh_	EvilDude: about two months
jonrelay	So is all this already coded and working?
davidc__	The vast majority of it
josh_	jonrelay: Most of it.
EvilDude	wow, it's amazing how much has been done due to the not having people bug you nature
josh_	uCdl still has some bugs to be ironed out
davidc__	hotdog/ttk integration is not done, but will be soon
josh_	the rest of it works
davidc__	we're still optimizing hotdog by hand to make sure its as fast as possible
EvilDude	has podzilla been rewritten basically to support the whole new ttk / themes and all that or just integrated ttk into podzilla?
josh_	EvilDude: Podzilla was rewritten, pretty much.
davidc__	But everything we've announced today, has been tested either by itself, or integrated into Podzilla 2
davidc__	which by the way, is the name of the new Podzilla
EvilDude	that's awesome :)
josh_	We separated the core and the modules, and most of the core is rewritten.
*	courtc doesn't know about the capital P
courtc	;D
josh_	The existing modules are currently running in compatibility mode (no slowdown, just can't use some of the new features since they didn't exist before)
davidc__	its podzilla
josh_	podzilla 2 - for short, pz2
davidc__	no cap
EvilDude	cool
josh_	any more questions?
gasman_	All this high-level graphic support is fantastic, but I have to be annoying and ask - will it still be relatively easy to get down to the pixel-pushing level for things that need to be low-level?
josh_	gasman_: yes.
davidc__	gasman_: yes
josh_	puremourning: all modules in podzilla CVS have been ported, except clocks.
EvilDude	so I presume most of the stuff has been tested on the iPod and causes no notable slowdown etc?
josh_	yes
gasman_	cool. Still meaning to get around to this spectrum emulation stuff :-)
davidc__	In fact, most of it is faster
josh_	the first thing we did was a simple port of existing Podzilla to TTK
EvilDude	wow :)
josh_	without any of the module stuff
EvilDude	yeah
josh_	performance was great
josh_	and modules don't slow it down at all
josh_	(if anything, it might take a little longer to start up)
EvilDude	that's pretty cool, I've been waiting for so many many many months for modules
EvilDude	Can modules be added anywhere to the menu structure?
josh_	yes
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EvilDude	So the menu structure is completely been redone then I presume?
josh_	you just do, e.g. pz_menu_add_action ("/Extras/Games/MyThing", new_mything_window);
josh_	EvilDude: still looks the same, but it's all dynamic internally
EvilDude	ah
josh_	further questions?
EvilDude	Is there any chance of adding things like nice fades between screen's?
jonrelay	Can pods support loading other pods?
EvilDude	haha let everyone else ask too, i'll have many many questions
josh_	EvilDude: Yep, hotdog could probably do that.
EvilDude	yay
josh_	jonrelay: they just specify dependencies and pz2 core takes care of it
Capso	How about the the internal Music Player?
Capso	No changes upon that?
josh_	Capso: that becomes a module
EvilDude	so does the module interface with MPD?
josh_	EvilDude: the module would have MPD in it, and start it when it's loaded
Capso	And how about correlation of videos and games (if any with sound) with MPD?
josh_	remember what we said about how PODs can include apps?
jonrelay	So, say, I write textinput.pod and that can load dialtype.pod, fbk.pod, thumbscript.pod? :D
Capso	And will we be able to run MPD along side other games, such as Doom?
davidc__	jonrelay: yep!
josh_	Capso: yes
jonrelay	Yay! :D
davidc__	Capso: If the processor is fast enough to, yep
Capso	For instance... I want to listen to some Wiggles songs while playing iDoom.
macpod	What is the plan for adding clocks and alarms?
josh_	jonrelay: the TI base is actually built into TTK
Capso	Davidc__: For instance: Mini 2G?
jonrelay	Double Yay! :D
EvilDude	how will one module talk with another module, I mean if it loads the other module, does it access the other modules stuff locally
josh_	EvilDude: extern void other_mod_func();
josh_	uCdl patches that up
EvilDude	ah, and the modules can use hotdog?
josh_	yes
EvilDude	awesome!
courtc	Bofia: no
EvilDude	is the file browser a module or is it part of the core?
davidc__	But you can easily build your own pods
josh_	EvilDude: module
josh_	14:46 < Bofia> will we be able to open up pods and modify them
davidc__	Alright. We're going to open it up to questions from everyone
davidc__	But any insanity gets a +q
EvilDude	haha
Nappers	first, a standing ovation for the devs :)
*	Nappers claps
EvilDude	agreed!
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*	JoeyJWC Claps.
*	Spazzium applauds
gasman_	*applause*
*	EvilDude claps
josh_	Bofia: you can extract the pods, modify them, and then re-make them, if you want... it's just like a normal archive, except that it can also be mounted like an FS
ichaelmay8	claps
*	jonrelay stands and ovades
davidc__	ok, now everyone can here you all.
Capso	Oh god.
futureyankee2	claps
*	Jobbe hoorays
courtc	Some of the functionality of the file browser is implemented in the core. For example default handlers for filetypes.
nimmer	claps
futureyankee2	*jumps up and down screaming insanely*
EvilDude	yeah that's what i was thinking about actually - how opening files would be affected but I thought maybe when you open a file in the file browser the browser itself can load the appropriate module
josh_	As for the question on everyone's mind... <when will this be coming out>... the source will be posted today, the bugs in uCdl are infuriating but should be fixed soon
karmon	will everything need to be rewritten?
josh_	karmon: nope
josh_	to port an old module, you basically
EvilDude	this stuff is awesome :) I mean, I predicted some of the stuff like ttk integration + theming  stuff but   the others are just awesome
davidc__	As we said, we've got most modules in CVS already ported
macpod	For hfs+ vs fat formatted iPods, will the file system locations be built into the TTK?
nimmer	does pz2 use less batterie? or have powersaving?
josh_	macpod: TTK doesn't care about the FS format.
josh_	It's just a GUI library.
josh_	nimmer: not yet
karmon	davidc__: i mean the unsupported apps and games too
josh_	14:49 <@josh_> to port an old module, you basically
karmon	oh
josh_	make a Module file with about three lines: module shortname (e.g. "wumpus"), name ("Hunt the Wumpus"), author ("Scott Lawrence")
puremourning	will all this include 'official' support for 4g ?
davidc__	its not official yet. Thats more than just podzilla.
josh_	copy the old C file to that dir, add #define PZ_COMPAT before #include "pz.h"
josh_	add, at the end, PZ_SIMPLE_MOD("
josh_	er
Spazzium	yeah, it'd be nice to see some of this support become "offical" with updated installers
JoeyJWC	I have a quick question.  Are you now designing Podzilla to be more compatible with the later generations (i.e. coding specifically for photos, etc.)?
josh_	PZ_SIMPLE_MOD("module", new_module_function, "/Extras/Games/Module")
Nappers	will the ipod automatically boot into pz2 or can it be launched from sash? i.e. boot to the sash prompt and launch pz2 like you would startx
josh_	jonrelay: 
josh_	er
josh_	JoeyJWC: 
slowcoder	OKay.. This is all applications and frameworks.. Hardware support is handled by the kernel, which we have made no announcements about
josh_	it's intended to be screen-size independent
josh_	so no, we're not coding *specifically* for photos
davidc__	It will boot automatically if you add it to inittab, or rc
josh_	Nappers: it's just like existing pz
davidc__	we hope to have it be compatible for all versions of ipod
josh_	except it uses SDL behind the scenes
Nappers	ok cool
slowcoder	Ergo, this is not the channel for "will this work on my....?" questions
davidc__	well, SDL + hotdog and bits
josh_	yeah
josh_	PZ2 atop TTK atop HD atop SDL
EvilDude	ah there's SDL too, wow
gasman_	aha... does that mean SDL now performs a lot better than it did last time I tried it?
EvilDude	does SDL support hardware acceleration (thinking way way into the future - if the 5g's video acceleration is figured out....)
JoeyJWC	Oh, no, I don't have a photo, but I'm just looking at how if at all backwards compatibility will harm the performance and future development of Podzilla.
josh_	gasman_: yes, it's a LOT better for B&W iPods
davidc__	EvilDude: the 5g hardware accelleration isnt actually hardware
josh_	for colors, it's about the same
gasman_	excellent :-)
davidc__	their example is software
EvilDude	davidc__: oh damn!!
davidc__	but on a dedicated CPU chip
davidc__	its a really special kind of CPU
davidc__	thats fast at that stuff
EvilDude	ah well i guess the dedicated CPU can be used somehow then
josh_	by the way, HD isn't tightly coupled to SDL - that's just the way we're using it.
josh_	more questions, people, come on, bring 'em on :P
JoeyJWC	Perhaps I misspoke in saying my question.  I'm concerned about backwards compatibility and how that might harm future development.
karmon	will there be more documentation on this in the wiki?
josh_	karmon: yes.
EvilDude	haha, so I know the presentation for HD says not for games or apps, but they can use it if they are modules right?
josh_	JoeyJWC: we'll try to be backwards-compatible as much as we can in core; individual modules are of course free to target only the color iPods, or whatever.
josh_	EvilDude: sure, any module can use it.
EvilDude	yep, that's pretty awesome
ichaelmay8	is there a better way to detect which ipod is being used?
josh_	HD is based more on objects than surfaces, so for simple pixel-based games it's better to just render everything to a canvas (that is one object in HD)
davidc__	Basically, we want it to function as a replacement ipod software on all generations
EvilDude	ah
JoeyJWC	I see.
davidc__	but a full color game is free to only support colors
EvilDude	so has the interface for podzilla been changed completely, or just the same menu system but looking a lot nicer?
josh_	interface is the same
davidc__	For now.
Spazzium	haha
josh_	but it's really modular - you can even write a module that reimplements the menu system
EvilDude	hehe, so it wouldn't be so difficult to change now that ttk manages it
EvilDude	wow
BHSPitMonkey	cool
Spazzium	are there any other themes already made?
BleuLlama	there will be
courtc	No
BleuLlama	eventually
josh_	Spazzium: no, but the theme file format is really easy to work with
nimmer	can i load diffrent icons for photo or nano in one pod,?
Spazzium	I'd really be interested in making some themes, I can't wait for docs to come out
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josh_	nimmer: sure
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JoeyJWC	Do you have a rough idea as to when we could expect alpha testing sourcecode?  I'm intrigued by your algorithms.
macpod	Would there be any way to set this up so that modules can be identified as compatible with the iPod they are about to be run on before they are loaded?
josh_	macpod: yes, we could do it that way - it's not done yet but definitely could be
jonrelay	I see some people making their own interfaces for the main menu. Will these be supported, or will they have to redefine the whole menu system?
josh_	now, I have to leave in two minutes, so I'll turn all remaining questions over to davidc__
josh_	jonrelay: sure, you could have it just launch normal ttk submenus instead of its own
EvilDude	haha ok, awesome work josh_ and all the devs, you guys rule :)
nimmer	word
gasman_	Any thought about the possibility of writing Podzilla extensions in other languages besides C?
futureyankee2	yea dawg
josh_	gasman_: as long as it's a compiled language with C calling conventions, should work
josh_	other things, we might do too :P
nimmer	when will you paste the api?
josh_	nimmer: as soon as we write it up
EvilDude	haha :)
josh_	for all you coders... http://www.get-linux.org/~oremanj/t/pz.h
EvilDude	ooo its what you pasted
EvilDude	but took away before i clicked it earlier :(
josh_	and the TTK API: http://www.get-linux.org/~oremanj/t/ttk-api.pdf
jonrelay	This is awesome.
*	jonrelay is very happy
josh_	the PZ API hasn't been written up yet
EvilDude	hehe me too :)
EvilDude	podzilla has finally become podzilla2! :D
futureyankee2	i like podzilla better though
futureyankee2	but w/e
josh_	just call it podzilla then
futureyankee2	good work
nimmer	happy birthday!
josh_	pz2 is just used to differentiate it
futureyankee2	ok
famous	at least its not podzilla 2.0
davidc__	Its still Podzilla
davidc__	its just version 2
Spazzium	you capitalized it again... :)
futureyankee2	lol
davidc__	gah
davidc__	podzilla
josh_	oh, and iPL-SVN in the main channel is like CIA for our new, formerly-secret Subversion repository
Spazzium	haha
josh_	where all this has been done
josh_	so if you want the code, svn co http://opensvn.csie.org/courtc/tools
puremourning	is there a c++ api for this stuff? 
JoeyJWC	Excellent.
coob	no
josh_	puremourning: no(t yet)
courtc	Hey, that's me!
davidc__	We havent done C++ because its a bitch to dylink
*	puremourning nods
coob	but you can use C APIS IN C
coob	whoa
davidc__	*in C++
coob	in C++ rather
EvilDude	i swear modules rule
courtc	In C too!
josh_	okay, I really have to go now. bye
JoeyJWC	See you.
JoeyJWC	And thanks.
ichaelmay8	thanks
ichaelmay8	awesome work
EvilDude	gw josh_ cya
futureyankee2	great work josh
futureyankee2	again
JoeyJWC	I'll chew on this stuff from the subversion repository for a while.  I'm so glad to see how powerful this software is becoming.
EvilDude	ok so ipp etc is gone right?
EvilDude	I cant find any module related to ipp :S
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JoeyJWC	In the mean time, I've got to go.  So see you all.  Happy iPLing!  :)
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courtc	A module could link with IPP, but I won't make it ;)
EvilDude	hehe good :)]
EvilDude	is mpdc or the itunesmenu stuff in here?
EvilDude	or is that still to come
courtc	Still to come.
EvilDude	hm maybe iTunes should be redone :(
futureyankee2	lol
futureyankee2	mab
davidc__	bit too much work for us ;)
coob	there a log of this anywhere?
EvilDude	hehe iTunes is so annoying :P
davidc__	I'm keeping one
davidc__	its going online in that thread
coob	blog maybe also? when the blog's fixed 
davidc__	uhoh
davidc__	I'm missing the first half of the meeting
davidc__	up to ucDL
davidc__	anyone else logging?
EvilDude	haha i can get the whole thing
EvilDude	i hope
davidc__	ok, make sure you grab a copy
EvilDude	or else it'll be a copy + paste of this whole window
davidc__	Anyone here who can get a full transcript, please send
futureyankee2	ichaelmay can
Capso	I have this whole window right now.
EvilDude	i have a log
jonrelay	Mine starts with 1) OK what's wrong with podzilla now
karmon	i logged this
EvilDude	it comes with annoying codes :)
davidc__	actually, I've got the whole thing
davidc__	its not in my scrollback
davidc__	but it still gets saved
EvilDude	ah
EvilDude	i'll keep a log just in case
EvilDude	after all this is a damn important day ;)
futureyankee2	yep
Capso	It is?
courtc	Any more questions related to hotdog, pz2, modules, or ttk?
karmon	so will the new podzilla have support for the new colours?
EvilDude	heh not much you know   just when podzilla has become awesome ;)
EvilDude	i dont think that has anything to do with podzilla :S?
courtc	It doesn't
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davidc__	alright
davidc__	Are there any more, final questions?
EvilDude	have the current modules been redone for ttk or do they work as before?
davidc__	They use the compatibility laye
EvilDude	ah ok, so how hard is it using the compatibility layer to port the modules
davidc__	one define
EvilDude	eg just wondering why clocks isnt a module yet
davidc__	I'm actually not sure
courtc	It's coming soon.
davidc__	I think it might just have slipped through the cracks
EvilDude	ah ok :)
jonrelay	What happens if ucDL can't resolve a dependency?
courtc	uCdl or the dependancy resolving within pz2?
jonrelay	within pz2
jonrelay	or within the pods
courtc	It will give an error when you start podzilla and refuse to load the module.
davidc__	it will fail to load the module
jonrelay	OK cool.
davidc__	but it will follow what you state as dependancies
EvilDude	so the current things to fix are for uCdl  - affecting iPod right? so desktop works fine?
davidc__	and load them first
davidc__	yep
davidc__	desktop is fine
jonrelay	Desktop doesn't use uCdl? Or does it but the bugs are on the iPod side?
coob	clocks maybe cos it uses some nanox stuff sdl can't handle, grarc maybe?
coob	desktop uses dlopen
EvilDude	ah ok
coob	desktop doesn't need ucdl, unless you're running clinux as your desktop :)
BleuLlama	clocks will be re-written, or support will be put in to get it close.  i promise
BleuLlama	:)
EvilDude	hehe :)
jonrelay	Does the desktop build emulate the ARM to run the pods?
EvilDude	ok its time i figured out how to get the sources on my desktop :)
courtc	jonrelay: No.
EvilDude	jonrelay: i presume desktop build is just normal binary made for linux
EvilDude	desktop build doesnt know anything about arm / iPod :)
davidc__	yeah, the hand optimized arm code gets #if'ed out in hotdog
davidc__	well, it will once I commit it
EvilDude	cool
EvilDude	SVN = instant access to download unlike cvs anon too right?
jonrelay	How does the desktop build run the pods?
davidc__	jonrelay: huh?
davidc__	oh
davidc__	I read iPods
davidc__	it just puts them pre-extracted into a folder
jonrelay	Are they compiled as binaries?
davidc__	well, the PODS never get built
davidc__	but it does build the object files if thats what you mean
davidc__	pods are no good if you don't have the right kernel module
jonrelay	Yeah, that's what I mean.
gasman_	that's what you meant earlier by xpods I guess - they're pods compiled for the desktop, right?
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davidc__	xpods is a folder
davidc__	containing extracted pdos
davidc__	*pods
davidc__	well
davidc__	they were never put into pods in the first place
davidc__	usualy pods get mounted under /tmp
davidc__	in this case, we just put the same fs, in the same layout, in xpods
davidc__	and if you use the "GetMyModulePath" or whatever function
davidc__	it'll point to the root of your modules folder
davidc__	no matter whether its on the desktop
davidc__	or on the ipod
gasman_	*nod* makes sense
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jonrelay	Is the object file machine-specific?
davidc__	of course :P
davidc__	its a compiled binary
davidc__	but any "iPod" module
davidc__	will work on all iPods
jonrelay	Then how will it work on both desktop and uClinux?
davidc__	well, you build it once for the ipod
coob	it doesn't.
davidc__	and you build it once for the desktop :P
davidc__	its source compatible of course
davidc__	aka, same source code
jonrelay	OH OK, so you build TWO object files into each pod.
davidc__	different MAKE flag
davidc__	nono
davidc__	you only build pods for the ipod
davidc__	they get stored in the filesystem in one way
davidc__	on the OS, we just have a set of folders that are setup by the build script
coob	EvilDude: yeah no delay on the svn
davidc__	to "look" like mounted pods
davidc__	and the desktop podzilla doesn't bother trying to mount them
jonrelay	So you have a pod for the iPod, and a folder for the desktop build?
davidc__	yeah
davidc__	but the same source generates both
davidc__	its just a make option
jonrelay	Alright, everything makes sense now. :)
davidc__	actually, one make does it all
davidc__	one make will build your desktop version, setup all the fake pod folders
davidc__	and also build the entire module tree for pz
davidc__	on the ipod
davidc__	so its ready to install]
BHSPitMonkey	so you just take a new app's source, 'make' it into a pod, and drag-n-drop?
BHSPitMonkey	cool
hyarion	will mpd use this module stuff for its codecs?
nimmer	can i simply compile the podzilla2 from http://opensvn.csie.org/courtc/tools ?
davidc__	depends
davidc__	nimmer: yep
davidc__	first build ttk
davidc__	then make install
davidc__	the build podzilla
davidc__	good luck if you're planning to use windows though
davidc__	we haven't tried building it on windows
nimmer	ahh that what i want to know. hehe no iam on mac
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davidc__	its only external deps are SDL, libpng, zlib and freetype IIRC
gasman_	presumably SDL will need patching to make an iPod build?
coob	yep
davidc__	the repository has some prebuilt binaries
coob	hyarion: mpd could very well use ucdl for codecs
coob	loading the codecs into iram would be easier for sure :)
coob	even just certain functions
coob	probably a few problems switching between codecs though
hyarion	but it would be easier to create them:)
*	hyarion hates autotools/-conf/-make :/
hyarion	just so I get this right... podzilla will load modules... but when will it load them? on boot, or whenever they are needed?
gasman_	on boot, from what I understood...
EvilDude	hm isn't on boot loading of modules be a waste of ram for things like games?
jonrelay	But if two modules provide the same thing (text input, for instance) it will only load one, and you can choose which one... from what I understood...
gasman_	personally I'm just amazed that there's any sort of dynamic loading at all, given that I read up on it a few months back and basically came to the conclusion that it was impossible :-)
EvilDude	haha yeah
jonrelay	Nothing's impossible as long as it's a Universal Turing Machine. :D
gasman_	yeah, I'd started looking down the path of interpreted languages / VMs, which I suppose is the Universal Turing Machine approach
davidc__	well, a UTM can emulate anything
davidc__	so theoretically, we could just simply run pearpc
davidc__	and run mac os x
davidc__	which has dyloading
jonrelay	:D :D :D
davidc__	note that turing didn't say anything about the speed it could emulate something
gasman_	well, yeah... we have an apple emulator now. We just need to add a few features. </noob>
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EvilDude	is the old stuff like jpeg library, microwindows etc still needed?
EvilDude	or is it all emulated?
gasman_	from the look of things that's done with SDL now
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EvilDude	yeah but I think for compatibility jpeg etc is still used?
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gasman_	well, I noticed SDL-image.a in the svn repository, which I guess takes care of jpeg
nimmer	davidc: did you also thought about a ipod os exploit? or is there really none?
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gasman_	geez. It's just about to turn midnight here, and I know I should be going to bed, but I just know I'm not going to be able to sleep until I've got a working build of this stuff...
[Templer]fxb	:D
jonrelay	Well, I'm gonna log off now.
jonrelay	Awesome work guys.
jonrelay	http://kreativekorp.dyndns.org:8080/iota/ipodlinux.mtg.txt
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